Sheik : Being gay has never been so sexy

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Sheik : Being gay has never been so sexy

Messagepar Nedved » 19 Nov 2011, 14:27

Sheik

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Introduction


Sheik est l'alter ego de Zelda. Si Zelda est au fin fond de la tier list, Sheik est au sommet.
Elle a été longtemps considérée comme le meilleur personnage du jeu, ou en tout cas l'un des tops. Si la domination des Sheik n'est plus (elle n'a d'ailleurs jamais été), Sheik reste un personnage constant, facile à utiliser, dur à maitriser, et donc décrié pour être un personnage "plug'n'play".

Sheik's moves

Neutral A- Jab
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  • Damage: 4%
  • Total: 17
  • Hit: 2-3
  • IASA: 16
  • Window for second jab: 3-25
  • Second slice begins: 10 (or later)

Utilisation Générale : Sheik a un très bon jab, qui a de nombreuses utilisations. Il sort très rapidement (2 frames, contre 3 pour Falcon).
Il est très facile d'enchainer sur un grab après un jab, ou d'utiliser un AFA si la cible est à haut %. (une des meilleurs méthodes de kills à haut%)
Après un SHFFL AFA, le jab permet de bloquer toute tentative de shield grab.
Attention au crouch cancel par contre !

Jab to AFA, les %s :
Je vais essayer de calculer ça par personnage, mais si quelqu'un à ça sous la main ou se sens de tester.


Neutral A - Jab 2 : Second Slice
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  • Damage : ?%
  • Total: 18
  • Hit: 3-5
  • IASA: 17
  • Window for jabs: 2-18
  • Rapid Jabs start: 10

Le deuxième Jab de Sheik n'est pas beaucoup utilisé. Toutefois, depuis les matchs de Overtriforce à l'ESA5, le deuxième jab est utilisé lors des jab reset : il suffit d'en faire 2 à la place d'un seul.

Neutral A- Jab 3 : Rapid Jabs
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  • Damage : ?%
  • Total: 55
  • Hit: 3-4, 7-8, etc.
  • IASA: Unknown
  • Jabs start: 10

La série de jabs peut servir parfois, histoire de mettre quelques pourcents gratuits. Il faut l'utiliser très prudemment et se rappeler que lorsque l'adversaire crouch, il encaisse les coups, mais va pouvoir également contre-attaquer.

Forward A- Tilt Avant
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  • Damage: 7%
  • Total: 29
  • Hit: 5-10
  • IASA: 27

Utilisation Générale : Possiblement le meilleur coup de Sheik, et le plus détesté, parfois le plus redouté, le fameux tilt avant. Côté usages... Tout.... Basiquement.
D'abord, il couvre une large zone devant le personnage. Il permet de contrer certaines approches, car il gagne facilement contre le knee de Falcon par exemple. C'est aussi une bonne solution après un Wd OoS pour contre attaquer et set up un combo. S'il n'est pas DI, il permet d'enchainer sur un autre tilt avant selon les % de l'adversaire. La suite logique est généralement une Dash Attack ou un AFA pour le kill. Il ne faut pas hésiter à s'en servir, mais il est possible de passer dessus, il n'est pas invincible.
Son principal défaut est qu'il est crouchable.
Les % de Knock down/crouch selon les persos :
Fox : 25% / ?
Link : ?/~80%


Up A - Tilt Haut
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  • Damage: 8% + 3%
  • Total: 33
  • Hit: 5-10, 19-24http://stream-ddl-series-films.com/SerieNipTuck.html
  • IASA: 26

Utilisation Générale : Le Tilt haut est un concentré de merveille : Il permet d'enchainer un grab sur tout ce qui est fast faller (Falcon, si tu nous entends) sans la moindre difficulté. On peux s'en servir pour continuer un combo (on utilise le tip du pied de Sheik), pour bloquer une attaque (un Dair de Falcon, ou bien on trade hits avec Fox/Falco par exemple), pour enchainer sur d'autres choses... Ce coup fait tout, vaisselle comprise. Attention à ne pas trop en abuser cependant, il reste punissable...

Down A - Tilt Bas
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  • Damage: 8%
  • Total: 29
  • Hit: 5-8
  • IASA: 28

Utilisation Générale : Le Down tilt est le moins "fumé" des tilts de Sheik. Il reste un excellent coup. Son principal attrait est de lever les personnages moins haut que les tilts haut et tilts avant. Ainsi, il permet de tuer à des % plus élevé, lorsque les autres tilts->AFA ne sont plus possibles.
Il est aussi utilisé après un Wd backward (face à un Falco qui vous Dair Shine bêtement par exemple).

Forward Smash - Smash Avant
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  • Damage: 5%->14%
  • Total: 50
  • Hit: 12, 27-29
  • Charge frame: 5
  • IASA: 46

Utilisation Générale : Un des moins bon coups de Sheik. J'en parlerai plus tard, mais l'oublier n'est pas un drame.

Down Smash - Smash Bas
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  • Damage: 13%-> ~30%
  • Total: 49
  • Hit: 5-9, 16-19, 22-24
  • Charge frame: 2
  • Legs invincible: 5
  • IASA: 46

Utilisation Générale : Un excellent coup, très(trop?) utilisé. Son principal défaut est les attaques qui arrive par au dessus (Dair des F' par exemple).
En utilisation, on note les edgeguard (en cas de manque de temps pour en faire un plus complexe), en tech chase (punition d'une non tech pour setup un edgeguard à moyen et haut %), en approche (Dash Cancel -> Dsmash) ou après un crouch. Principalement. C'est un killer move selon les % (il est techable facilement par contre)

Run A - Dash Attack
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  • Damage : ?%
  • Total: 37
  • Hit: 6-12
  • IASA: 360

Utilisation Générale : A venir....

Up Air - AUA
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  • Damage : 9-12%
  • Total: 39
  • Hit: 5-20
  • IASA: 37
  • Auto cancel: <4 30>
  • Landlag: 24
  • L canceled: 120

Utilisation Générale : A venir....

Down Air - ADA
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  • Damage : 11%
  • Total: 48
  • Hit: 15-33
  • Auto cancel: <2
  • Landlag: 20
  • L canceled: 10

Utilisation Générale : A venir....

Down Air - ADA
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  • Damage : 11%
  • Total: 48
  • Hit: 15-33
  • Auto cancel: <2
  • Landlag: 20
  • L canceled: 10

Utilisation Générale : A venir....

Neutral Air - ANA (sex kick)
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  • Damage : 9-14%
  • Total: 48
  • Hit: 3-30
  • IASA: 42
  • Auto cancel: <2 31>
  • Landlag: 16
  • L canceled: 8

Utilisation Générale : A venir....

Forward Air - AFA
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  • Damage : 13%
  • Total: 33
  • Hit: 5-7
  • Auto cancel: <4 11>
  • Landlag: 16
  • L canceled: 8

Utilisation Générale : A venir....

Back Air - ABA
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  • Damage : 9-13%
  • Total: 37
  • Hit: 4-19
  • Auto cancel: <3 25>
  • Landlag: 16
  • L canceled: 8

Utilisation Générale : A venir....


Miscellanous

Tech-Roll Forward
Total: 40
Horizontal Movement At: 10
Distance: 16.2 ft
Invincible: 1-20

Tech-Roll Backward
Total: 40
Horizontal Movement At: 6
Distance: 16.2 ft
Invincible: 1-20

Getup-Attack (Back)
Total: 49
Hit: 17-19 (Front), 24-26 (Behind)
Invincible: 1-26

Getup-Attack (Stomach)
Total: 49
Hit: 16-17 (Behind), 20-21 (Front)
Invincible: 1-21

Getup-Roll Forward (Back)
Total: 35
Horizontal Movement At: 10
Distance: 11.4 ft
Invincible: 1-19

Getup-Roll Forward (Stomach)
Total: 35
Horizontal Movement At: 7
Distance: 11.4 ft
Invincible: 1-19

Getup-Roll Backward (Back)
Total: 35
Horizontal Movement At: 11
Distance: 11.4 ft
Invincible: 1-22 (If the roll takes you to an edge you will slip off unless you WALK forward, or if an attack is timed on that exact frame)

Getup-Roll Backward (Stomach)
Total: 35
Horizontal Movement At: 4
Distance: 11.4 ft
Invincible: 1-19

D-Throw: NO
39, 61 [22] (Hitbox on Ground 31-38; 31-34 hitlag)

U-Throw: NO
27, 62 [35] (Hitbox on Feet 19-26; 19-23 hitlag)

F-Throw: NO
28, 52 [24] (Hitbox on L-Shoulder 20-27; 20-24 hitlag)

B-Throw: NO
23, 51 [28] (Hitbox on R-Leg 15-22; 15-18 hitlag)



Ingame - Stuff and others.


Je vais essayer de consigner pas mal de truc intéressant, autant que possible.

Edgeguard
Sheik peut drop-> ANA et remonter onstage. Si vous faites drop->ANA->DJ->Fair, vous ne pourrez que vous accrocher.
La base en edgeguard est de savoir RNC (Reverse Needle Cancel) très rapidement. FH->RNC->Bair/Nair marche plutôt bien selon la situation. Il est parfois utile d'agrémenter d'un DJ avant de faire le Bair.

Matchs up


Rappels divers
Tier list PAL/NTSC et Matchs-up charts à venir.
Tier List PAL :
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Fox


Falco

DI sur le shine : Il envoie à 84°. Ce qui veut dire que la meilleur DI est vers le côté (ne pas se tromper), et un tout petit peu en bas. Globalement, une bonne DI (même pas besoin de SDI) permet de se tirer d'affaire (=transformer le combo 80% en combo 25%)

Notes de KirbyKaze :
Contre la pression au Shine+Aerial :
  • Je conseillerai de faire beaucoup de WD OoS > dash attack sur Falco s'il fait beaucoup de pressions avec des aerial+shine. La Dash Attack fait tomber [knock over] Falco très tôt s'il ne fait pas un vrai crouch cancel. En terme de risk&reward, la Dash Attack vaut généralement le coup, car c'est dur pour Falco de se concentrer sur des tech au sol/CC pendant qu'il fait des SHFFLs - Shine Cancel rapidement.
    WD OoS > F-Tilt ou D-Tilt à l'endroit ou l'oiseau atterrit est également une bonne option.
  • Sinon, je recommande de garder le bouclier si vous trouvez que vous vous faites contrer vos WD OoS ou vos Nair OoS. Si Falco fait des aerials early, vous pouvez shieldgrab sauf s'il pars en arrière pour spacer ou vous traverse. Vous pouvez aussi WD OoS ou Nair OoS un aerial early avant qu'il ne shine, ce qui est cool aussi. Si vous devinez le type de pression qu'il va utiliser, prévoir un contre adapté est bien plus simple.


Rondoudou

  • Ne pas avoir peur d'approcher un AFA, mais le spacer au quart de poil de cul de mouche.
  • Ne JAMAIS retomber en aerial contre un Doudou au sol à bas pourcentage (surtout ANA ou ADA) : Il va croucher et rester. Tekk utilise beaucoup ça.
  • Ne grabber que quand c'est safe : sur un aerial au spacing foireux, sur un smash avant... jamais quand Doudou peu faire quelque chose (c'est à dire crouch to rest)
  • S'il rate son spacing et que son aerial vous traverse alors que vous êtes en shield : Up smash out of shield. Attention, si vous le le ratez il sera dans votre dos.
  • Si Doudou est dans votre dos : commencez à suer, il va tout faire pour vous placer un up tilt. J'ai pas de solution miracle pour ça. Parfois, attendre un peu en bouclier peut suffire à le calmer sur le up tilt et vous donner un petit moment pour fuir tranquillement. Mais attention au shield stab.
  • Recovery :
    • Ne faites pas de AFA après votre deuxième saut quand vous approchez du terrain. Un bon Doudou vous punira au back air.
    • S'il est accroché... tentez de revenir en double explosion, si possible en visant une plate-forme en hauteur. Dans tous les cas il peut trouver une quenelle pour vous rester, mais vous réduisez les chances. Dans tous les cas, essayez d'aller le plus loin possible.
  • Edgeguard :
    • Pas grand chose à faire : quelques aiguilles pour faire chier sont une bonne solution, et quand il est à haut pourcentage, tomber du stage + AFA ou rejump ANA peut être une bonne solution.
    • Dans tous les cas : attention, au moindre moment d'inattention il peut toujours faire un truc pas légal et retourner la situation contre vous. Mieux vaut le laisser revenir que prendre trop de risques.


Sheik


Marth

  • Abusez du tilt bas, éventuellement avec un crouch. C'est très utile quand il est accroché et remonte avec un aerial.
  • Edgeguard :
    • Des aiguilles quand il passe à hauteur du terrain.
    • Accrochez vous et repérez le rythme de ses B côté pour placer un ABA.

Peach


Falcon

  • Edgeguard :
    • Des aiguilles dans le bas B.
    • S'il revient par le bas :
      • ABA/ANA quand vous êtes accroché (attention à le taper de façon à éviter ses possibilités de tech)
      • S'il vous choppe avec son up B : walltech walljump AFA
      • S'il arrive à revenir : ADA/AUA to combo, ou grab
    • S'il revient pas le haut : son recovery lui permet une grande amplitude de déplacement : il faut donc se tenir près du bord et bien observer.
      • S'il essaye d'accrocher le bord : tilt avant/bas -> AFA
      • S'il revient vers l'intérieur du terrain : ADA ou AUA ou ce que vous voulez to combo
    • Vous pouvez aussi rester accroché pour le forcer à revenir sur le terrain, et enchaîner avec un ADA ou AUA to combo. Le reverse AFA passe aussi pas mal dans ce genre de situation.


Samus

  • Taper dans les missiles au lieu de les shielder (sauf si vous avec confiance en votre jeu de powershield, auquel cas allez-y). Le tilt avant marche bien pour ça.
  • Si vous grabbez : D-Throw
      À bas pourcentage : Samus va toucher le sol. La plupart des Samus ne roulent pas sur le côté, attendez vous à une tech sur place.
    • À moyens pourcentage : Samus peut resauter et faire un aerial : attention à ne pas sauter dedans. Si elle ne fait pas d'aerial, à vous de punir, au AFA par exemple.
      À haut pourcentage : Samus part trop loin, rien à faire.
  • Edgeguard :
    • des needles dans les bombes : quand elle est au niveau du terrain, à partir du sol, puis en sautant quand elle passe en dessous.
    • Si vous avez qu'elle va revenir et qu'elle a sa boule, essayer de la forcer à faire son up B pour balancer une aiguille dedans.
  • Recovery : s'il y a des plateformes, visez les pour revenir, surtout sur Dreamland. Le fait d'être en hauteur fera qu'elle aura plus de mal à vous toucher avec la boule. Sinon, vous pouvez tenter le up B à double explosion.

Fauster
S'il est accroché au bord du terrain et remonte, il y a une chance sur 2 qu'il fasse une esquive sur place puis un smash bas Image



Link

Alors le premier conseil quand on affronte Link, c'est d'oublier que c'est un low-tier. C'est un odieux mensonge. Pas d'inquiétudes, à skill égal vous devriez dominer si vous savez ce que vous faisez.

A quoi s'attendre :
-Un grappin qui a énormément de range, et qui attrape même derrière lui. Et qui permet de recover
-Un CC très puissant (le tilt avant a plus de 80%) souvent suivi d'un D-Smash.
-Des juggle AUA extrêmement violents.
-Des objets (même si c'est banni en vrai) en quantité.
-Quelques combos violents qui peuvent finir sur des edgeguard, voir des ADA (cette plaie).
-Un Neutral Air fumé.
-Un tourbillon

Contrer les lutineries
  • a) Le grappin
    Le grappin est lent à sortir, il faudra jouer là dessus. AFA->Jab ou AFA->Tilt marchent si vous êtes assez rapide
    Link utilisera toujours les upthrow ou dthrow. Uthrow pour mettre des % avec un AUA en suivant (et juggle), la DThrow pour finir (UpB ou Dair). Côté DI, c'est côté (derrière principalement). Attention, sur la Dthrow, si vous vous dirigez vers le vide, le tourbillon serait fatal, donc mieux vaut ne pas DI trop (il est impossible d'éviter le UpB.)
  • b) Le juggle AUA
    Ne sautez pas, sauf si vous êtes sur de l'éviter. C'est une plaie, mais il y a peu de solutions. Soyez sûrs de vous et DIez pour limiter la casse.
  • c) Le neutral Air
    Le neutral air frappe jusqu'à la frame 39. et il est interruptible très tôt. Donc Link peut vous taper avec et se tirer juste après. (Shield pressure au double ANA entre autre). La seule solution est la vigilance. Vous savez que ça arrive donc faites-y attention.
  • d)Le crouch cancel
    Dès que Link commence à CC, avec sa traction toute pourrie, sachez que un Fair lui permettra toujours de contre attaquer (qu'importe le spacing) avec grab, Dtilt, Dsmash ou Nair. Impossible d'utiliser les tilts non plus. Changez de méthode de jeu et needle->grab le calmera un peu, surtout avec quelques tomahawk.
  • e) Des objets
    Si vous savez PS, n'hésitez pas, ils ont pas l'habitude (à l'inverse des Falco). Sinon, soyez prudent face aux bombes, car c'est leur meilleur solution défensive (notamment depuis le shield). Prenez votre temps, les needles sont meilleures que tous les objets du lutin.

More later.



Notes de KK (à trier)
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Sheik vs Falco
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Anyway, if you're getting stuck in shield on nair oos then it's a timing issue. I'm not sure what you mean by "grabbed". If you mean you produce shield grabs accidentally, again, timing issue. If he's shine-grabbing, then you're gonna have to add rolls and sidesteps to your oos repertoire. Or time the nair better (since it technically can work vs shine grab because Sheik is too good).

If he's not forcing you to face him with lasers, bair is also really effective. It trumps most of his aerials (except his own bair because of how jump heights wind up working out) and you can d-tilt or whatever in that case.

When I have Falco in close quarters, and he's trying to fight me, I'm basically just trying to protect myself from his counterattacks while poking him. I have a few options I use a lot. Usually, I like to initiate with Fair in this position because I think it's one of her strongest options but Bair, movement based stuff (dash dance --> dash attack, grab, etc), and even grounded moves (space them) are good.

The one nice thing about Falco is that he can't really run away from you without the laser. So you can actually take your time a bit more once you've got him off balance (provided you deal with panic attacks properly) because he's actually in a really vulnerable spot here. Keep that in mind. You don't need to rush things.

~~~~~
Anyway, I generally have three go-to options when I initiate with Fair at lower percents. You can do other stuff (a lot of other stuff) but these three are my staples.

1) SHFF AC Fair --> SH
2) SHFF AC Fair --> grab
3) SHFF AC Fair --> some kind of wait (dash dance, WD back, block, etc)

The first one is good because jumping again will leave you ready to initiate another round of pressure. Continuing pressure via a set of needles (y'know how I keep saying having a few needles handy is absolutely amazing? Yeah, this is another shameless plug of that) is a good way to get a free grab if you observe that he's crouching, waiting for more. If not? You can swing at him. This kind of links up to the third option because after SH you can wait in the air and check for a roll or sidestep (needles --> grab works on sidestep too if you have enough or shoot late) and punish those. After enough SH aerials you can go for empty hop grabs (which you did, and seeing that pleased me).

Second one is mainly something you do if you notice they like to CC --> block, CC and wait, etc. Or if they just don't anything. It's very good. Always good to check for, because this gives you the most payoff at low percents if you hit a successful tech chase with the throw (which you can). Not much explaining required.

The third is similar to the first. Dashing away, waiting (at medium percents, when they're pushed outside CC range), etc. enables you to scout defensive options. Because you're sticking to the ground, you keep grab, dash attack, tilts, and down smash open as viable options.

In terms of ground-based stuff, traditional Sheik games work on him pretty effectively. I think dash attack and grab should be prioritized, but f-tilt and d-tilt are also really good. F-tilt for stuffing his jumps. D-tilt for sneaking under non-dair hitboxes. Against dairs I think just grabbing or dash attacking the landing lag is probably best, rather than challenging it. That said, you can challenge it if you want; I recommend bair & fair. Just be wary of dash attack and nair (and to a lesser extent up tilt) if you start doing that, because his counter is to sneak under your aerials and that can ruin your position.

You can do other stuff, obviously. SH nair is often very good, as I'm sure you noticed. But these are some of the ones I like and tend to use because of their safety and payoff. Depending on the habits of the opponent, you can gamble a bit more with whether something is susceptible to crouch or not. In general, as long as you're spacing well and action quickly after your aerials, you won't be crouch-punished or shield-punished very often by Falco.




Editor's Note: In this position, presenting your shield SPARINGLY is not always bad because you can get them doing a lot of panic attacks that will be performed with speed & priority abuse in mind, rather than safety vs a shield. I'm sure we've all seen the arbitrary Falco F-smash come out, the random high dair approach that makes no sense, and the zany dash attack from left field. Shielding these can get you a huge payoff either via nair OOS or other creative options you find suitable (I'm currently trying to get into the habit of up smashing OOS on dash attacks, but with little success thus far).


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Sheik vs C.Falcon
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If he approaches with a SHFFL or SH aerial, I like f-tilt, fair, and d-tilt for defense. Especially d-tilt. If he approaches from higher, I like bair, up tilt, and f-tilt as a defense. But fair also works.

I really like crouching in this matchup because it's difficult for Falcon to do tight movements efficiently because of how much ground he covers with everything he does. So by compacting your body when you're not moving, it makes you that much better defended from his typical "spacing aerials" like nair and whatever. He has to aim lower or predict you moving out of crouch, which makes his air vs your ground game a lot more simplified, which Sheik likes.

If Falcon doesn't DI away from your throw, you can combo most of your relevant ground moveset on him (basically any tilt, jab, and down smash). Knowing this can make for some good combos. Also, Falcon can ASDI out of your jab resets at 32% so don't do those after 32%. He can SDI out of them below that and it's not too difficult, but if you hit one you can fairly easily hit him with the double up smash hit, which leads to massive damage and often good combos (to perform, dash inside his body as he's standing and JC up smash; both hits connect; it's easiest when he DIs away but you should be up tilting on non-DI away most of the time anyway).

I'd talk about ranges but my opinion of significant ranges for Sheik is sort of under construction for this MU at this point so I'm not really sure what to say about it. So maybe Teczero or someone can field that one for me.


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Sheik Ditto
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•Background information:

Sheik vs. Sheik is becoming increasingly common in tournament setting and it's not too difficult to see why-- with such strong representation from players like M2K and Amsah, Sheik has, in recent years, developed a bit more of a following. Aside from more people being open to playing her, others are also once again recognizing her value as a secondary character.

If you are new to maining Sheik and want to play her in every MU, currently main Sheik and want to improve your Sheik ditto game because you feel you lack direction, or are in the process of picking up a Sheik secondary to use for the Sheik ditto and need some help to get you started then the following section of this guide is for you!

•Mechanical Information:

Sheik can chain grab herself to 80% or so (barring platform interference) and finish herself off in a variety of ways. Tipped up smash works on anything but horizontal DI away and KOs starting around 75% (percentage is prior to the hit; hitting the tipped up smash at its minimum KO percentage can be very tricky and I generally don't recommend it). Beyond tricky things like that, you can simply kill by setting up an edgeguard at the end of the CG and following it appropriately (usually by fair, or tilt > fair).

If you are playing without chain grabs, you treat the combo tree pretty much the same as you would against Marth (only you don't regrab the DI away at low percents). D-throw > dash attack begins to be effective around 30% on DI away. If they DI elsewhere, generally up tilt is the best move (f-tilt is also acceptable at times, though).

Regardless of whether you're playing with or without CG, it is strongly recommended that you learn how to d-throw > dash SH rising fair at 50% or so. This allows you to finish CGs at the edge and transition into edgeguards effectively, rather than relying on them having bad DI on an f-tilt or whatever. It's very good (it is also very good against Ganon, Link, Pikachu, and several other characters).

To edgeguard, you generally want to force her to recover onstage and then punish her. Wavelanding from the edge onto the stage (henceforth to be referred to as "ledgedashing" for the remainder of the guide) into grab is one of the best things you can do because you can turn around and face off the stage, which traps them (run by nair if they DI behind, fair the DI away, either way they go offstage). You can also stand > grab, stand > d-smash, ledgehop dair, and a variety of other things.

If possible, needle to stop Sheik's momentum when she's offstage. Her air mobility is poor, and this will improve your chance of forcing her to Up+B, or prevent her from being able to reach the stage with Up+B, etc.

If she's close to the edge, remember that she doesn't get invincibility on her Up+B until frame 18. This gives you a good window to hit her out of its startup. Covering options with offstage nairs, bairs, fairs, etc. are a good way to rob her of her jump and sometimes even get gimps on her. It's very good.

•Combat Stratagem:

Combat in a Sheik ditto boils down into a pretty simple spacing game. One of the major players in this system is SH fair, simply because her SH fair is absolutely beastly. The other major tools are her grab, crouch cancel, shield, and tilts (in no particular order).

In general, Sheik's fair will beat most of her options if spaced properly under general conditions and is a fairly generic means of attacking (or defending, even). SH FF AC fair is therefore one of the widely popular and prolific techniques used in this MU.

Countering SH fairs is trickier than it looks. F-tilt works, but it's prone to trades (or even straight losing) because of how ridiculous SH fair actually is (consult the hitbox thread in the resources section for more detail!). Generally, for your f-tilt to beat her fair, you need to tilt proactively rather than reactively. Nair and bair can also be used to beat fair, but they generally have to be used proactively rather than reactively; given how long these moves hang out, this can be dangerous (although they make a great mixup!).

To reactively beat SH fairs, your options are generally going to revolve around getting under her hitbox and sneaking your hits in (rather than directly challenging it). For this reason, d-tilt, d-smash, and even dash attack are common answers to it. The first two are easily set up by simple crouch-WD movements, and even dash cancels if you're ballsy. The last can be implemented by a combination of trots, dash dancing, and using WD > dash variations to get momentum.

Countering opposing low hitboxes from the air is doable in a variety ways. One technique that Unknown showed me a while ago that I initially discredited was simply dairing over their move. However, further exploration of it (and playing with M2K) has lead to some revision and it's not that bad of an idea. Although dair can be true-CCed for a while, it begins to knock over fake-CCers at fairly reasonable percents (40%?). Jumping over dash attacks, d-tilts, and similar with dair can lead to some very silly punishment opportunities. Similarly, air needles can often be a pretty good answer and link to grab for heavy punishment. Doing an aerial like bair, nair, or fair later to compensate for the crouch is also a good option, although it can be countered by the opponent doing an attack that hits higher, earlier (this RPS system shift is largely unavoidable, though, and one of the reasons why crouching is powerful in this game; this also obviously counters the dair strategy as dair hits late naturally, because of its delay).

Ground vs. ground in a Sheik ditto generally boils down to whoever is more proficient at punishing lag and whoever's better at being evasive. If the opponent is playing mostly grounded but you have better movement and defensive habits, playing ground is probably a reasonable idea. In this case, you want to be aware that the ground game will be very crouch-heavy, in addition to being very movement-heavy. F-tilt will often miss if you do it close to a crouching Sheik, and her tilts in general are CCable for a while. Grab, down smash, dash attack (space it so you finish far behind them), etc. become very good tools in ground vs. ground Sheik dittos. Hurling a boost grab into their crouch, dash dance, etc. space can be a pretty good way to get a KO (but I'd generally be cautious about using it because if it gets predicted you can be grabbed back; it's not a bad idea if you can tell how they like to move, though).

As a side note: M2K claims that down smash is very strong in non-CG Sheik dittos. Drephen likely agrees with this, if his style is any indication. I personally find the move hit or miss and somewhat situational, but it does have some great moments and it's one of the few moves that can straight beat her aerials reactively because of the invincibility. It's also a fairly good edgeguard, combo finisher, etc.

Another little tidbit: You don't want to be on platforms for very long in this MU. Although the prospect of optimal needle angles seems good, in practice you give the opposing Sheik too much time to get a good position. Either by getting under, or by getting a good angle to attack you from. Using platforms to reposition is great, and they do offer a good angle to attack from at times, but don't get comfortable on them. Staying on platforms is a good way to get wrecked by bairs, up airs, and various other shenanigans. It's a hard position to hold effectively.


•The Anti-Shield Game

Sheik's shield is massive and her oos game is great so she gets her own section on how to engage a blocking doppelganger. If the opponent shields in a Sheik ditto, you have a variety of ways to attack it, but they all have counters, with varying degrees of severity. This does not mean that you shouldn't attack shields period, but be careful. Look for habits and condition (if possible and/or necessary).

The most common way to engage a shielding Sheik is to space your fair outside their shield grab range. You can do mixups with jabs and whatever but be careful because CC shield grab and CC grab mashing will rape that pretty hard and you'll get hurt. I think you can space the jab far enough for it to be immune to that garbage, but I'm not 100% on it so don't quote me on it. Fair > dash away is pretty good for this reason, because it allows you to punish counterattacks out of shield pretty easily but the drawback is that if the opponent retreats (with WD oos, etc.) it's very difficult to capitalize.

The reason for jabbing, tilting, or even down smashing after you hit a shield is to catch jumps, shield-grabs, and other shenanigans. Doing so, however, will encourage them to hold block and wait for the follow (whether they'll learn or not is another matter, though). If you can condition them to hold shield, fair > grab becomes pretty good.

Empty jump > grab is also a fairly reasonable technique because most Sheik shield pressure revolves around hitting an aerial and then following with an action (or waiting). This preys on the complacency many have, and the belief that "Sheik will hit my shield with an aerial."

Low nairs are also good because, after doing it, neither character is at frame advantage (assuming full power nair) which allows you to do a variety of things afterwards, including: dash behind the opponent (requires you nair sort of deep into their shield), dash away (requires you not nair deep into their shield), attack (grab becomes a reasonable option because, assuming they shield grab, whichever grab is timed better will win if you break even in terms of frame advantage and it's easier to learn offensive timings), and waiting.

Generally, you can counter most delayed aerials as Sheik with simple things like nair oos but you have to be careful against fairs because nairs have less priority. You can also generally look for spots to WD back, which is also an effective way out of shield pressure. In general, your goal should be to avoid doing something that will get you grabbed or hit into a massive combo when you're shielding. Counterattacking is a secondary concern.


------------------------
Sheik vs Peach
------------------------

Peach Sheik in NTSC...

Make her get into the air and slap or bair her appropriately. Needles are good for making her go airborne. After you slap or bair her, your follow (assuming you get a follow) depends mostly on positioning and stuff. I find bair > bair is pretty common at low percents, and fair > f-tilt > fair is pretty common too. Fair > dash attack > ??? becomes pretty good at mid percents.

You can f-tilt through her aerials too, if you want to. You have to do it proactively rather than reactively, though, so be careful with it. You can also dash attack under her aerials (not dair) if you time it and position it correctly. Takes some getting used to, though.

If Peach decides to not approach when floating, remember that her float only lasts so long. You can honestly just sit back and charge ground needles and throw them at her when she's coming down if she's trying to be hyper conservative. Just be prepared to cancel the charge and swing at her (or retreat) if she starts coming at you. Her only option at that point is to attack (which is fine), try to throw you off with garbage like air-dodge that doesn't do anything about needles, or retreat to a platform. Peach being on a platform is a good position for you as long as you're not stupid (just don't jump into down smash).

When blocking, you can't counterattack after FC aerials. You can counterattack after dash attack, jabs, and down smashes. And anything that's spaced badly (f-smash, badly spaced d-tilt, etc).

If she decides to play a ground game, it's not too different, only you're supposed to play a bit more defensively because attacking recklessly into Peach's ground game gives her more chances to get under you. Use a bit more bair. WD back, shield, dash dance, etc. Just flaunt how your movement is much better than her's and you'll be fine.

Protip: When you're spacing bairs, if she comes in for a dash attack, instead of bairing just triangle jump away from her and then punish appropriately. I like to turn around and grab, but if f-tilt tickles your fancy and it's at a percent where it'll work, then go for it.

She's gonna crouch a lot so you have to be good at aiming your aerials relatively low to the ground (while still retaining the AC in the case of fair).

Lightshielding near the edge to force yourself to grab the edge is massively underrated and very good because she can't actually do that much about your poofstall without being kind of obvious about it. I mean, if you just poofstall over and over again she can eventually steal the edge, but you can see her getting that position and switch it up (baby ledgedash is amazing). If you can catch a turnip, you can make it really hard for her to cover all your recovery options onto the stage even if you forgo the use of the ledgedash so keep that in mind.

If they're really campy, if possible, push them to the edge (get them trapped under a platform, etc). From there you can just pressure them and zone them until you hit them offstage and then do some systematic aerial & tilt algorithm and you'll cover just about everything. You shouldn't concern yourself too much if she grabs the edge because you can cover most of her getup options really easily because she doesn't have a proper ledgehop (no ledgedash, really slow ledgehop aerial, loses almost all invincibility if she tries something funny, etc). Needles are amazing in this position.


------------------------
Sheik vs Luigi
------------------------

Against Luigi:

Use a lot of needles (aerial & ground, depends on how far he is), fair & bair, and d-throw > f-tilt > block at low percent (after like 30% switch to fair or uair [if he doesn't DI away just fair > ??? or uair always]). Run off platform fair. Shield > punish (sometimes WD oos is required) is good against his entire moveset except grab & super spaced f-tilt & some down smashes he'll get enough momentum to be safe from you on (although WD oos needles actually can work on the latter & is ****ing annoying).

Use needles to stop misfires preemptively during his recovery and to prevent him from getting distance from tornado & green missile. Fair > bair if you can hit it on him. Take away all his options & hog him (or hit him away).

You should DI all his throws behind him. CC to block, d-smash, or grab if he does jab stuff.


------------------------
Sheik vs Doc
------------------------

Doc:

SH fair. SH bair. Run off platform fair. Use a lot of fair & bair. Space them. Air needles are pretty good too. Grabbing him is really good, too, and your ground movement is better. F-tilt is dangerous against shields if they're good but most of them suck (they can up smash oos but only Shroomed does it). Crouch cancel > block, d-smash, or grab if he jabs (Docs like to jab > d-smash so CC > block > WD oos punish works a lot). His game is mostly centered around crouch-punishes, grab attempts, and getting under you with up tilt, uair, or up smash so if you play to avoid those you'll be fine. Your f-tilt rapes his aerial approaches.

If he camps pills, just charge needles and then prepare to engage him. It's easy to run under them, WD under them, crouch them, nair through them, bair to protect yourself from them, etc.

The combo tree is similar to that of Marth. On DI away, d-throw > dash attack isn't 100% guaranteed (jumpable, possibly even vulnerable to Up+B) but it works enough that I recommend it anyway up to about 45%. After that, f-tilt or fair (or get creative with nair or something).



------------------------
Sheik vs Mario
------------------------

Treat it exactly the same as Doc only expect Marios to be more aggressive about holding the middle & stuff. If you go berserk with aerials you might get f-smashed so play a bit more grounded. You can also be f-smashed if you go for nooby shield grabs and whatever on spaced moves, so don't do that. They're gonna try to bait you into being f-smashed a lot. So block, stay spaced, etc. It's not a great plan on their part or anything, but it's easy to get complacent when you have a big character advantage. If you deny them their random smash attacks & grabs, there's not much Mario can do about you.



------------------------
Sheik vs Fox
------------------------


tbh it's really easy to nair OOS on dair-shine pressure. So if Fox is doing a lot of dairs I sometimes just block more and nair OOS rather than try to do SDI stuff. You can also just do aerials aimed at his head because he doesn't protect himself as well as he does with nair because of lower range.

24-25% is the magic number for f-tilt. Beats anything but true CC at that point onwards.

A good start to the defensive spacing strategies vs Fox is to stay just outside his SH nair range and space SH fairs preemptively. This protects you from a far approach. From there, you pay attention to how he goes about moving into a closer range or maneuvering around you and then counter accordingly. As soon as you figure out how he's trying to close the distance, you can just counter with an appropriate Sheik thing. Running under him when he's doing FJ approaches or awkward high approaches is really underutilized because he will try to manipulate the circumstances to prevent f-tilt and other crap like that from being a good option (either by initiative or other shenaniganry).
Dernière édition par Nedved le 13 Juin 2012, 23:14, édité 31 fois.
Memo : Ce que vous lisez au-dessus peut-être méchant. Calm down, en vrai on est tous de gentils poulets. Mais une bouffée d'acide en pleine gueule n'a jamais tué, non ?

No Hate, No Gain

Armada a écrit:As spacies I don't think you need a secondary cause they have no bad MUs. Maybe Fox lose against Falco/Marth and Falco maybe lose against Marth (Im not really aggreing with Marth being terrible like most of smashboards says)

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Re: Sheik : Being gay has never been so sexy

Messagepar Roxas » 19 Nov 2011, 14:29

Pourquoi vous faites pleins de topics moisis sur chaque personnage ?

Le Falco, ok, le Falcon, on passe limite au rainbow power, mais là, c'est plus possible.
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Re: Sheik : Being gay has never been so sexy

Messagepar Meljin » 19 Nov 2011, 14:30

Je pose la première question alors (que j'ai posé il y'a 1minute sur le topic questions, mais bon...) :
Quels sont ces trucs pétés impossible à faire en PAL ?
Je vois juste le AUA en killer move et le down-grab largement mieux, je rate quelque chose ?

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Re: Sheik : Being gay has never been so sexy

Messagepar LordYggdrasil » 19 Nov 2011, 14:50

Ils me semblent que ce sont les seuls changements, mais juste le down grab change toute la façon de jouer le perso parce que pour falcon par exemple : un grab = ~75%
We ARE the SMASH ROOKIES !

Tekk a écrit:Tu es détestable, Paul.

tetsuro a écrit:ça me dérange pas de jouer marth [...] car celui de Paul il est beau ^^
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Re: Sheik : Being gay has never been so sexy

Messagepar Nedved » 19 Nov 2011, 15:01

Ce sont les seuls changements en effet.
Mais cela réduit beaucoup le nombre d'options de Sheik :
l'AUA augmente les chances de kills sur tout ce qui est floaty (puff surtout) et le grab... baah tech chase à l'infini, chain grab (de 0 à 90% sur certains persos comme Bowser), grab to tilt (uptilt ou Ftilt), grab to AFA, grab to AUA... tout est possible en NTSC :/
Memo : Ce que vous lisez au-dessus peut-être méchant. Calm down, en vrai on est tous de gentils poulets. Mais une bouffée d'acide en pleine gueule n'a jamais tué, non ?

No Hate, No Gain

Armada a écrit:As spacies I don't think you need a secondary cause they have no bad MUs. Maybe Fox lose against Falco/Marth and Falco maybe lose against Marth (Im not really aggreing with Marth being terrible like most of smashboards says)

Bowser >>> BSeeD, Xeal, Sora, Lukahn
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Re: Sheik : Being gay has never been so sexy

Messagepar Meljin » 19 Nov 2011, 17:09

Je me rappelle de ces vieux matchs avec Captain Jack et... euh... Azen je crois, où c'était un Sheik ditto sur DF et ça se jouait façon Ice Climbers ; Grab = death.
J'avais trouvé ce match vraiment moche >_>'

J'aurais besoin de détail sur les jabs reset ; comment ça marche, pourquoi, comment faire pour l'éviter ?
Quand je fais Sheik vs Marth, et que je place un jab reset vers 40%, parfois le Marth se relève et me laisse le temps de lui préparer mon smash haut (d'ailleurs, est-ce la meilleure option pour rape des dégats ? Je pensais a ADA AUA AFA ou du moins ADA AFA en alternatives...), parfois il fait un rebond comme quand le jab est fait à de trop hauts %.
Pourtant, je suis sûr qu'il m'a déjà fait le rebond à ~30% et le jab reset à ~50% >_>'

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Re: Sheik : Being gay has never been so sexy

Messagepar Willy » 20 Nov 2011, 00:26

Roxas a écrit:Pourquoi vous faites pleins de topics moisis sur chaque personnage ?


porc a écrit:La section "personnages/match-up/..." existe toujours pas mais ça nous empêche pas de faire des topics qui iraient dedans.
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Re: Sheik : Being gay has never been so sexy

Messagepar Poilon » 20 Nov 2011, 04:22

Je veux ma place Here, et pas dans les Falco/Falcon/persosduràjouer xD
C'est tellement agréable de jouer ce perso !
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Re: Sheik : Being gay has never been so sexy

Messagepar DjaGoF » 20 Nov 2011, 14:01

Poilon a écrit:Je veux ma place Here, et pas dans les Falco/Falcon/persosduràjouer xD
C'est tellement agréable de jouer ce perso !


Pourtant t'as presque que joué Fox à l'esaj, tu triches là mec. :roll:
V3ctorman : Most important thing is to believe in yourself and your character. With that anytings possible.
On the real man, i'm so proud of you for going Yoshi, in your stuff man, and you did amazing!! that inspires me to play Yoshi some more too n_n

Blea Gelo a écrit:Why did you do this random falcon punch recover, i woulda won if you had recover with a single up b... I - I - I mean that was absolulty insane, nobody would do this in the real life dayum, I guess this is how the France rolls yo

Epidermik a écrit: wow, I've been showing my friends your videos and was telling them that "Djag is that good and he doesnt smoke!"
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Re: Sheik : Being gay has never been so sexy

Messagepar Poilon » 20 Nov 2011, 14:07

Contre cyr j'ai joué que sheik, et en team j'ai quasiment joué que sheik !
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Re: Sheik : Being gay has never been so sexy

Messagepar beLia » 20 Nov 2011, 18:21

Y'a personne dans la sheik brotherhood ou quoi ? 8)
Maxattack a écrit: [...] mais la particularité de ton style c'est que tu cherches toujours à donner les meilleurs réponses à chaque situation et ça rend ton jeu très monotone, ce qui implique que ce n'est pas marrant de jouer contre toi...



:fox: :fox: :fox: :fox:

Le guide a écrit: Marth fais partis de la famille des personnages à épée. Il se sert presque tout le temps de son arme.
Il dispose d'attaque relevant de son style.
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Re: Sheik : Being gay has never been so sexy

Messagepar Biglard » 20 Nov 2011, 18:25

Je pense que je vais essayer de mainer Sheik pour ma part. Après moultes hésitations ça me semble être un choix intéressant.
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Re: Sheik : Being gay has never been so sexy

Messagepar Nedved » 20 Nov 2011, 18:47

On a pas besoin d'une brotherhood.
Déjà, car nous ce sera une sisterhood un peu, et aussi, plus ironiquement, car ce serait une gaytherhood en vrai.
On est au delà de ce genre de considérations :D
Memo : Ce que vous lisez au-dessus peut-être méchant. Calm down, en vrai on est tous de gentils poulets. Mais une bouffée d'acide en pleine gueule n'a jamais tué, non ?

No Hate, No Gain

Armada a écrit:As spacies I don't think you need a secondary cause they have no bad MUs. Maybe Fox lose against Falco/Marth and Falco maybe lose against Marth (Im not really aggreing with Marth being terrible like most of smashboards says)

Bowser >>> BSeeD, Xeal, Sora, Lukahn
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Re: Sheik : Being gay has never been so sexy

Messagepar Meljin » 20 Nov 2011, 20:16

(si jamais on utilisait AUSSI ce genre de topic pour répondre aux questions, ce serait pas mal >_>')

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Re: Sheik : Being gay has never been so sexy

Messagepar Nedved » 20 Nov 2011, 20:56

Meljin a écrit:Je me rappelle de ces vieux matchs avec Captain Jack et... euh... Azen je crois, où c'était un Sheik ditto sur DF et ça se jouait façon Ice Climbers ; Grab = death.
J'avais trouvé ce match vraiment moche >_>'

J'aurais besoin de détail sur les jabs reset ; comment ça marche, pourquoi, comment faire pour l'éviter ?
Quand je fais Sheik vs Marth, et que je place un jab reset vers 40%, parfois le Marth se relève et me laisse le temps de lui préparer mon smash haut (d'ailleurs, est-ce la meilleure option pour rape des dégats ? Je pensais a ADA AUA AFA ou du moins ADA AFA en alternatives...), parfois il fait un rebond comme quand le jab est fait à de trop hauts %.
Pourtant, je suis sûr qu'il m'a déjà fait le rebond à ~30% et le jab reset à ~50% >_>'


Meljin a écrit:(si jamais on utilisait AUSSI ce genre de topic pour répondre aux questions, ce serait pas mal >_>')


Je suis d'accord, j'espérais une réponse d'un BG mais bon...
Si Marth rebondis ou autres, c'est que ton timing est bizarre :

Quand un perso tombe sans techer, il tape le sol, rebondit, puis s'allonge. Si tu jab juste après qu'il s'allonge, il se relève lentement. Il se relève vite s'il a mis son stick vers le haut, il rolle s'il a mis un côté et get up attack avec A. (standard)
Pour l'éviter... tu tech ou tu penses à incliner ton stick.

Un autre Jab reset est possible à bas % (surtout vu avec Falcon et Sheik NTSC) : quand l'adversaire tombe devant toi, tu frappes avant qu'il ne touche le sol, a bas % il est juste stun mais remis debout --> Grab.
Memo : Ce que vous lisez au-dessus peut-être méchant. Calm down, en vrai on est tous de gentils poulets. Mais une bouffée d'acide en pleine gueule n'a jamais tué, non ?

No Hate, No Gain

Armada a écrit:As spacies I don't think you need a secondary cause they have no bad MUs. Maybe Fox lose against Falco/Marth and Falco maybe lose against Marth (Im not really aggreing with Marth being terrible like most of smashboards says)

Bowser >>> BSeeD, Xeal, Sora, Lukahn
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